Technology in the Legal Landscape

March 6th, 2019 / Published in: Interviews

Revolutionizing the legal landscape through Machine Learning AI Platforms.

Fayiaz Chaudhri is General Counsel and CEO for AIMACTEK Inc. He is responsible for management of the company’s legal department and legal entities, and serves on the executive board. Prior to AIMACTEK, Fayiaz was the General Counsel and Corporate Secretary for Atos IT Solutions and Services Inc where he managed the legal affairs of a multibillion dollar organization.

Prior to Atos Fayiaz was Americas General Counsel at Infosys, where he was responsible for the legal operations of a $7.5 billion business unit. During his tenure, Infosys broke its record for most new business won in a year and he was recognized within the company as an exemplary team manager, key contributor and top performer through various awards. Prior to Infosys, Fayiaz was Senior Legal Counsel at Steria, EMEA Head of Legal at Epson and Head of Legal at PSINet. A leading expert in developing legal teams, negotiation and IT outsourcing, Fayiaz is a faculty member at Practising Law Institute and is regularly invited to speak at educational events by various training organizations.

Podcast

Transcript

Dulce: Hello everyone and welcome to DojoLive connecting tech experts like you, my name is Dulce and I’m from the recruiting team it nearsoft and I would like to introduce you my co-host from Sunny California we have Tullio Siragusa, Tullio are you ready for this?

Tullio:Yes, typically it’s sunny but it’s been raining for almost eight weeks, I’ve decided to file for a refund, I want my money back is the sun thing going for eight weeks, but yes, glad to be here, from usually sunny Southern California.

Dulce: Ok, awesome, such as chain for the knots weather today, and for Mexico City we have Carlos Ponce, how are you doing Carlos?

Carlos: I’m doing my best, the best I can, I got a terrible cold but I’m here to crank up.

Dulce: Awesome, that the spirit, that’s the DojoLive spirit, and well in this edition we have our very special guest, he is the general counsel and CEO for Aimactek, he’s responsible for the management of the company’s legal department and legal entities and servers on the Executive board, welcome to DojoLive Fayiaz Chaudhri, I hope that I pronounced everything right.

Fayiaz: It was absolutely perfectly pronounced, and don’t worry it’s my parents fault, I have never seen the name, they came up with it, delighted to be here you know, a great opportunity for us to discuss and chat about machine learning and AI, and yes I have two titles at the moment but I’m hoping to give one of them our way soon and just stay as a CEO once we start hiring a few more people.

Dulce: Great, awesome, so before we talk about today’s topic, please Fayiaz tell us more about your company Aimactek.

Fayiaz: Yeah, so let me tell you a little bit about myself and Aimactek, so I’ve been a general counsel and a legal executive for the last 20 years or so, so prior to Aimactek I was it Epson, I was, sorry, I was it Atos, I was a general counsel of Atos until December last year before that I was the general counsel in emphasis for about five years prior that I was heading up a team in Styria and then prior to that I was the head of legal for Amir for Epson and now we’re going back about 16-17 years but at that point I was heading up a team for PFnet, and I take up up I’ve been in the IT sector and a legal executive for 20 years or so, I you know, I’ve gone through the frustrations of being an in-house lawyer and also as a private practice law firm lawyer and the things I couldn’t do wanted to, and the things as you know, I wasn’t able to add value on which was really important to me and so the opportunity came for me to join it Aimactek I was hoping them a little bit with their product anyway and then when they asked me to come and run the company I jumped on the opportunity so I joined Aimactek in the first week of January is here so it’s quite new it’s been about two and a half months, since I joined Aimactek itself as a machine learning AI company our first product is for the legal space so it allows for search review and analysis of your existing contracts with allows for the risk analysis of your existing contracts, and also allows you to do automated markup of your new contracts, so all the things I couldn’t do in my 20 years where you can now do with the platform, you can, you know, 140 page MSA will now take you about an hour and a half rather than four days,and in the end would probably take you five minutes and if I want to go back or if I over an organization wants to go and say, I want to review my top hundred customers and I want to make sure I have you know, let’s say Nearsoft want to do that and say hey I want to review my top hundred customers and I want to make sure that i have a non citation clause because I don’t want my customers hiring my people if you go to your legal department right now they will say, ok we need to put a team together we need to find one hundred contrast we need to review them, we need to take out you know, the provisions we need to put in a Excel spreadsheet somewhere and then eventually we’ll come up with an answer in a months time, with the platform it takes three seconds.

Dulce: Awesome.

Tullio: So that’s kind of what’s [INAUDIBLE] sorry go ahead.
Now just saying brilliant, go ahead.

Dulce: That’s great, well today’s topic this one you chose in technology in the legal landscape revolutionary, revolutionacing things the landscape through machine learning AI platforms why did you choose this topic?

Fayiaz: It’s a passion of mine, is this what I Aimactek does too and it’s one of the reasons why I left a guaranteed retirement and came and joined Aimactek and went for more of a startup mentality when I was an executive at Atos the executive board paid in the same way as you would expect for an executive, and but the my passion was actually to try and make sure that my frustrations which all of the lawyers face in their transactional business are eliminated so that they can support the business that much better, and also they you know, people are developing legal departments can retain their staff that much better because no one likes to do 100 NDAS everyday and spend all day doing that, they want to do more value add stuff, something which is much more much more developmental in their career, so that the reason you know I chose this topic, has always been a passion of mine the technology wasn’t there until actually even last year to really do this these things properly, I mean, we went from keyword analysis to natural language processing and only now are we really using deep machine learning in these kind of topics and particularly with the sort of the new techniques which have come out from Stanford where you can do so partial learning, you teach the machine learning engine you know, english first and then you teach it the regal english and so through partial learning techniques it makes it easier for data digestion so once the technology was there to and to do that this was a passion of mine, always has been and I really love to talk about technology and how we can change the legal escape, because that’s what happens I also have an engineering degree for my sins.

Tullio: That’s amazing, I can’t just jump in real quick this reminding me of something I was a pricewaterhousecoopers a few lifetimes ago working in the transactions services practice specifically M&A and the amount of time spent reviewing documents was I mean amount of people and teams involved was incredibly time consuming, these are pretty significant documents to review specifically with large M&A transactions, is there a particular target segment of the legal space that you’re going after is it broad, can you give us a little bit more of a flavor where you’re focusing?

Fayiaz: Yeah absolutely, so actually the M&A use in case is a really good one, nowadays if you want to do a data room analysis you know, if I want to buy a company let’s say, I want to buy initial the first thing I want to do, on Nearsoft sorry, the first thing I want to do is I want to have other click contract and understand whether you have a what liability provisions you’re agreed to do you have a limitation of liability and for that I send it to external counsel, they go through the day to room of you know, thousand, two thousand however many contracts there and they do an analysis and say these are the liability provisions they’ve agreed to, and then that really it should allows me to then understand whether it’s a company I want to acquire an order and also if I am going to acquire on what terms am I going to acquire that company and that takes forever I mean for if you want to do in-house you can’t because you don’t have the resources if you send it to external counsel they charge you know, three four hundred dollars an hour, it takes a few of the other way as a few week to go through it, now with this platform you can literally do the data room analysis in the matter of seconds you don’t even have to just send it to external law firms anymore, if I wanted to do a data room analysis of you know, of all the contracts and find my limitation liability provision, and sorted them out per contract and them export it in an email, it would basically take me three seconds, it would take me the time it takes me to type in the liability and press search, and their rest it does automatically, so I think that’s a great user case for me, the user cases for this platform are sort of fourfold and really the first is I want to be able to analyze my existing contracts whether it’s for mergers acquisition whether is for trend analysis, whether it’s to see what negotiation you know, where we’ve got to negotiation or whether it’s for compliance or due diligence or any other factor, for whatever reason I need to I need to be able to analyze my contracts quickly efficiently, the second piece is I want to be able to reuse some of the stuff I’ve done before I mean always do that all the time, but if there’s a really great cause I drafted you know, two years ago I have to go through my database, find out which contractor was trying to work out where I remember it, you know, I drafted it and try and see if I can reuse that, so this allows you to do that really quickly the third piece which it does which I think is value and which a legal department can provide as a value add is the risk analysis function, I mean with this platform lawyers can literally go into the contracts elts say look it their top 50 customers and say I’ve just analyzed the risk in terms of the SLA provisions, I’ve agreed to so I’m going to go back to my CEO or my CEO and tell them where they should really push or really position extra people because wait where do they need them, which are the contracts where I’ve got a high-risk provision there where if they want to add extra people they can do that and the final piece which you know, we all suffer from in the business world and suffer from now being now the other side of the spectrum as a CEO and is that lawyers never tend to respond or do the work quickly enough for different people, well those help people whether it’s executives and to be able to mark up a contract or hundred page contract within an hour and a half allows you to give that value straight away and allows you to really come or compete but also to come to the right caliber of response for your business people which you know, takes out the frustrations allows as your legal department to be positioned in a very different way.

Tullio: I have some follow up questions specifically around how amazing of a disruption this is but before we do that I just want to remind anyone who’s watching the livestream who wants to ask a question they can do so on Twitter, they can just post the question on DojoLive it dojolive on Twitter, and we’d be happy to take those questions while we’re on and speaking of questions I think we have one from an audience now, Carlos.

Carlos: Yeah, absolutely we have a question actually from one of our teammates Wendy Mclean, and Wendy is asking this a question for Fayiaz of course, and Fayiaz, does your product have a feature that says your company or the product apart from your competitors?

Fayiaz: Yes, so I think this is where you know, we initially talked about how technology has developed, having people who’ve tried to do this 2-3 years ago and have tried to use a mixture of keyword hacks and natural language processing are two years behind, that’s not where we are now, and so the key thing is let’s look at the search function, the key thing with the search function is they can’t be any noise, you know, it has to give exactly what you wanted, only what you want because if I have to go in and start to filter the results, what’s the point of automating it in the first place, so what we use is deep machine learning, so machine learning algorithms which are understanding what you want from that feature, understanding your request, applying that request to the contract language which they find then giving the results which are prove it to you so it’s real deep machine learning so for example, I could type and say hey I want to look it the confidentiality provision and if there is a MSA which say this is not [INAUDIBLE] it says protection of information as a heading because it’s not headed confidentiality makes no difference, because the algorithm is actually reading the clause understanding this is basically a confidentiality clause and when it’s providing you the results it’s providing you the right results for you so I think that’s the key, the intelligence of the search is interesting with a risk analysis it’s rule based, so we allow in organizations to revise the risk rules in accordance with their own risk appetite, which really means that is has to be, you have to put deep machining algorithms which have the ability to understand your rules because you can change them, and then apply them again to the contract and in this way you know, they bring so I give you a simple example, the algorithm needs to know that 30 days in arrears payment terms is a completely different risk profile to 30 days in advance, yeah that’s a good example, and then finally for the markup, the fun bit is the intelligent and that’s what we like and again we will algorithm based and we have our own proprietary algorithms and that is our what we call our secret sauce and really with what we’re trying to do is say to you yes you know if it’s me if it’s close to your language we’re saying yes it’s acceptable that’s the easy bit if it doesn’t match your your standard language we’re saying it’s not acceptable that’s the easy bit the interesting bit and the fun bit is the yellow is that what the yellow is saying to you is it doesn’t match with your standard language but I’ve a platform having read your standard language understood what you find acceptable can tell you that this course is going to be acceptable to you and that’s where the where the algorithms and the D machine learning come into play and this is what really sets us apart our part is our and as you’d expect with algorithms and for those of you know machine learning it’s all the refinement of them it’s how you find them how’d you come up with them you know if you take them from a standard library you’re not going to get the same accuracy as you do if you if you actually have proper data scientists who know what they’re doing our fields you know mathematics Prize winners you can then refine them appropriately also it really you know your data set really impacts it you know we’ve put in about 6,000 different variations of contracts in there as an initial set so there is nothing it hasn’t seen before or won’t have or won’t be you would [INAUDIBLE] want the sets of the part our technology is right there at the very forefront and we doing things no one else can do so at the moment no one in the market can do the risk analysis with the rules being customizable no one knows the market a market can do the 140 page on the site so they can do NDA’s which they tried because it’s very simplistic document but no one can do a complicated document like we can and actually no one has the intelligence in the search we do.

Tullio: I like it, it’s bold, go ahead Dulce I know you had a couple of questions, I’ll leave my first [INAUDIBLE].

Dulce: Ok, great, I have a question it is amazing how to talk about technology it really looks that you love talk about it and that is one of your passion but how did you find this passion how did you know that you wanted to do this?

Fayiaz: So I’ve been I’ve been a lawyer for 20 years but I’ve always been in the technology sector and originally my first degree was in engineering so I am actually a qualified electrical and electronic engineer and I gave that up because I was not very good at it first and I think the first book which I got which was engineering mathematics blew me away but then in the second semester when we got the advanced engineering mathematics book it was even worse and so I realized very quickly that engineering although it was a passion of mine as a as a youngster is not really professional I’m going to do two well then and so it was the case of where what do I do and I kind of fell into or after engineering and but because I had that technical background I’ve always the stayed and lived in the technology sector so all through my career were there is psi debt or Epson or stereo or Infosys or at was they’re all in the technology sectors and in one form or the other and so I’ve always been there and it’s always been it’s sort of a passion of mine and I’ve dealt with and I’d be I’ve kept a very close eye on how you know particularly data analytics and aid and data Sciences and machine learning I’ve developed over the years and predicting in the last three or four years because I always thought technology is going to get there for lawyers too and we are the worst people I mean I can say this as a former and a present lawyer of some degree of little competence but you know at this great CV I’ve heard I can say that to you very very clearly that we lawyers are the worst when it comes to accepting technology because we brought up we brought up on the basis of precedence about what happened in the past is how we want to do it in the future and that’s the way we’re taught and trained so really really bad at absorbing technology and I always thought there is going to be a time when the technology is good enough that the accuracy is there for lawyers so we we let go of our inhibitions we let go of the the case that you know I want to recheck everything this platform is doing and then be able to use technology to do everything so much more efficiently and so much more proactively and would say much more value-add and so it’s always been a passion of mine and I was I’ve always followed it for that reason I think we’re there now.

Tullio: So, begs the question in terms of adoption right so it’s a major disruption let’s face it it’s a major disruption you know lawyers of professional services industry and it’s based on time a lot of the billing is based on time spent right so you’re you’re in essence introducing it’s the concept that what would take 20 hours might take only one hour does that have any impact on how firms might be looking at this in terms of resisting adoption what are you seeing so far?

Fayiaz: So I think that’s an amazingly good and we’ll put together questions so it goes in two parts the first is for the in-house lawyer for the in-house department so all firms of near soft and all forms of you know fossils neiman-marcus Atos you know those people for them it’s an absolute godsend because what this platform allows them to do is to take away or the pressure of having to respond to RFPs having to respond to contrast quickly because now they can do it they don’t have pressure from the business for doing any more it also allows General Counsel’s to reposition themselves as not a back-office function but hey I’m a strategic leader of the organization and I’m a strategic leader because I can do analytics on my contracts now quickly and efficiently and I can give you the results of that which will help you in making your business strategy and your business decisions so you know a simple example is I I’m a you know I did say I’m a GC I go to my top 50 customers I look at the SLA provisions now I can do it in a fraction of a second I can go back to my CEO and said say that you know you have 10 extra people I would put them on customer X Y & Z because the SLA provisions we have there are very very high-risk or I’ve gone through our top hundred customers I can’t believe we don’t have non-competes and fifty of them I think are those that something we need to put in play or here you know I’ve gone through my contracts here the main obligations were missing from a time frame perspective and these are what we have to do so it hasn’t drew a lot of value add so for in-house lawyers it’s an absolute no-brainer and they’re jumping towards it with law firms you’re absolutely correct although firms tend to do is they say that we can charge by the hour so what you would expect is that if we say to them it’s going to take you this hours they can as they will that’s gonna mean we make this money that’s actually not true because more and more and I can say this as AGC for 20 years more and more people like me are asking our external partners of all firms to say I need a fixed fee because what I’ve realized is actually it’s harder for me and you and have this from your instant entity as well it’s I would rather you say to me it’s going to cost me $6,000 and it cost me $6,000 rather than you say well my estimate is $5,000 but now it’s cost you $5,200 because for that extra 200 I have to go through the appeal process again it’s a complete waste of my time it takes me forever to do there are ten different approvers I have to do so really more and more in-house lawyers I think legal firms just give us a fixed fee particular for transactional work just tell me how much it’s going to cost you skim your fee and if you want internal you know our the our our rates sort of recognition for your internal purposes – whatever you want I just need a fixed fee and so the minute that happens and it’s happening more and more the quicker you can do it means you’re actually making more margin as a law firm so you’re charging them the same or you’re charging them you know similar but if it’s taking you you know 90 percent less time you’re actually making 90 percent more margin and this is particularly true for thus more than medium sized firms who are trying to compete with the bigger firms and how do they compete with them you know because we have the 20-30 big law firms you know and if you look at the large you know take away the multinationals just look at the large US orphans you probably have another 20 so you have those top 50 firms but you then you have hundreds of thousands of law firms medium regional firms medium for them small firms what to compete with these people and are trying to get the business how do they get the business where they get the business by giving better pricing they get the business by allowing you to do fixed pricing by saying look our price will not change and we will wear them with sort out the hourly rate for our admin on the backend by ourselves and so them for them this platform becomes a competitive advantage because if he allows them to do something let’s say rather than five days take some hour and a half even if they’re charging half of what they normally charge they’re still making a little money but you know you’re absolutely right about one thing though that it’s still a mindset issue though you still have to change the mindset the thought process has to change so it doesn’t matter how great a technology is doesn’t matter how obvious the benefits are there’s always are notoriously bad for just being stuck in their ways and I was one of them so I agree with that but it it still needs that mindset change and you know it’s it’s how how do you how do you change that mindset and the way we position it we say 2gc Zurg this is going to actually help your career if you want to be a strategic leader and you want to be you know on the board and making those decisions this is the way to do it if you want to develop your team and not lose all your lawyers this is the way to do it stop them having to do all the grunt work get them to do some better stuff and for those firms it becomes a quick it becomes a year a cost issue and a pricing issue.

Tullio: Sounds absolutely reasonably logical so um how far along is your company in terms of tracking in the marketplace where where are you in your evolution of the product itself?

Fayiaz: So the product was completed I mean its cloud-based so it’s based on Google private cloud as all of the right enterprise securities you know tick boxes there the other thing we do which i think is very very important for the ways is that the data doesn’t transfer anywhere it doesn’t go cross-border it stays within your host country so if I’m a US company it stays when the US actually probably says within the same because we choose the focus which are next to your offices that probably is in the same city if I’m a UK company it stays in the UK if I have a u.s. office and a UK office we can actually keep your data from the UK in the UK and your US state in the US so there’s no cross border transaction to try cross border data protection issues I think that’s important and then for us you know because its cloud-based we keep adding functionality so our platform was ready and there’s licensable and was from the 3rd of January and it’s now being it’s it’s now being adopted and we have kinds which are a full spectrum maybe we have very small in-house departments we have one department we’d only have three people and I said well why do you want the platform they said because way we’re building through acquisitions and for every acquisition if we can just do the data analysis ourselves it pays for itself and many times over so that’s Lance for them so we go from there to large in-house departments or large IT service providers you know we so I think that’s those are customers I’m trying not to name names on purpose because we have non publicity clause with some of them and then we we also have more firms both big and small actually if I’m being very honest and this is a very bad thing to say you know in a public forum but I prefer that when the platform is adopted by medium and small size law firms rather than the larger law firms because what the logical forms are going to do for them the prices are rounding they don’t really care is like you know if this nominal is a nominal for them so they use it because they like to have all the tools available to their partners and they’re pleased how much they use it is you know it varies for small and medium sized or firms this is an absolute necessity because this is helping them and generate or keep generate business keep business and actually make money so they’re heavy users of it so I really enjoy the heavy usage of it’s not because it makes us any more money it doesn’t we have a flat fee but actually because I quite enjoy the fact that it’s being adopted and used in the manner we actually envisage so the platform’s ready we have customers all around the spectrum from insurance companies to in-house departments for retailers to IT service providers to companies you you know who are a forefront of their of their fields who you would know very well maybe they start with a G and have a GR at the end and so so the who’s gonna come please and then we have all thumbs – so we have smaller ballrooms and also some of them some of the main larger ones too and so it’s a quite a spectrum of customers but then it’s it’s an evolving thing so where the next thing we’re looking at is to say can we get to a stage where we can get osya or not er technology we’ve already gone that stool and far so can we get to a stage where we can actually recognize your handwritten notes in the same way as we can recognize documents so you can have the same functionality for all of your handwritten notes which you do for your documents now people would say that’s easy to do because look I can do it with my check you know I can I can sign my check now so maybe that’s the technology’s there it’s not really there for unformatted data isn’t it it’s not there for very strictly formatted piece like the signature of a jacket yeah you can do that but you can’t I mean we struggled even with the OCR stuff so we struggled with scanned documents when we first started with it everything on the market and you know even even the big boys who have spent millions developing it and what we realized was if you scan a document the OCR technology currently can’t even work out or can’t work out whether it’s a 4.3 or whether it’s a 43 because with an image it thinks that the point is next to the three so it’s 43 that doesn’t matter for most people but for lawyers it really matters because it messes up the whole numbering and you know when you’re doing searches it it destroys it and so with us what we ended up having to do was to build on existing OCR technology using deep machine learning algorithms which could then differentiate between columns and you know points and all sorts of stuff and so that’s one of the developments we did but with which continually developing stuff so handwrite a handwritten note is kind of a next next stage of our development and we were very excited of work with where we’re going they’re.

Tullio: Exciting, as always when it gets to get really interesting we’re out of time it’s it always happens this way so before I hand it back to Dulce to wrap it up it sounds you’ve really passionate about this and I think it’s amazing and I agree with you a hundred percent mid-sized companies have the ability to basically compete with the with the large guys in a way that they couldn’t before I think it’s brilliant any words of wisdom that you’d like to share in terms of breaking through a change in the mindset of a market because it’s a challenging thing to do and it’s certainly something you’re having to do any words of wisdom you like to share what anybody also struggle with that in their building of their product in terms of educating the markets and changing their mindset when introducing disruption.

Fayiaz: So I think we’re changing the mindset with any kind of entrenched sort of sector like the vegan industry is it’s important that the the cost-benefit analysis is so so skewered one way that it makes it an absolute no brain I think that’s really important so the way we do it is we show how it can help you can help in-house departments were there you know development of their people retention of their people strategic value for the General Counsel’s and for it for them to be able to do things they can’t otherwise do and the same with the law firm to for them you know changing their mindset means showing them it can actually make them money so it’s not a cost it’s not a IT cost which they’re having people hope it’s actually something we could rally around in value generation and you know I give you a very quick example so we’re speaking to a law firm and they said to us okay on a few functionalities what about the risk analysis what are we ever going to do with the risk analysis function you know of existing contracts what we do with that unless it were would you retain customers at the moment they say oh we do free training then as well you don’t no longer how well you can do that but this is an additional customer retention tool you can now go to your customers and say hey because it didn’t take us very long we just analyzed everything you negotiated in the last hundred last you know year or so and we can tell you these are the provisions where you’re off market and you’re doing a really bad job these are the provisions which you’re doing really well in and also have doing some analytics we can also tell you that these are provisions you may want to change your wording on because they want may not be enforceable so that for analytical you know dashboard information allows you to retain customers so I think we’re changing the mindset it’s all about going people that the benefit is so great that it outweighs any any any sort of apprehension they may have and the second piece are in other and this happens in every industry not just lawyers with AI and machine learning and robotics and automation where people think oh it’s going to take away jobs it doesn’t take away jobs all it really does is allows you to actually do better quality word because it’s not start doing the grunt work or you know for all the update cuz it’s taking your five days so imagine if I can actually develop us all the way because it’s not taking me fine [INAUDIBLE] say it’s not taking me an hour and a half or I can do better interesting stuff which I really want to do but I never get the time to do it because I’d taken your day to do grunt work so I think that’s the way to change mine at the benefits and the personal and organizational really helped but it’s still the challenge so the challenge.

Tullio: Thank you it’s been a wonderful talk, Dulce.

Dulce: So thank you so much Fayiaz for getting to chat with us it was so much fun and it’s incredible how you are so passionate about what you do so thank you for that and also thank you Tullio thank you Carlos for joining us today we’ll see you everyone next week I think I don’t know Carlos if you have what’s upcoming for DojoLive.

Carlos: Yeah, exactly I was gonna mention that okay well the next week this is just a quick announcement before we all go next week we’re gonna be chatting with Simon maple the director and developer relationships from the company called sink s Y and K .io so let’s see if we have the topic that we’re going to be chatting about nope we don’t have it yet and it’ll be there in a minute folks stay tuned on dojo.nearsoft.com this for another for another fun I don’t know I’m just thinking of ways to describe how beneficial it would be for all you thought there to suit get their wheels inside and watch off you know there’s a little bit over 160 but for this one the the the next one next week’s is we I don’t have a topic yet but again stay tuned for Simon maple director offered to vote for relationships at sync.io and that’s all I have to say thank you Dulce, thank you Tullio and of course thanks to our guest Fayiaz it was a pleasure an order to chat with you here although I was a little bit more in the silence side kids thank you so much.

Fayiaz: Thank you so much everyone for your time and your peace and your hospitality was wonderful to be here.

Tullio: Cheers stay on for a little bit.

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